A
short time ago I had a conversation with a brother who claimed that
Arminians can be saved today and lose their salvation tomorrow. I
challenged him to provide me the theologian, theological article,
book, teacher, pastor, church group that believed that. He absolutly
refused to do so, but he insisted that I provide a time frame for how
soon a person can lose their faith.
The
conversation:
JK
I would want to be clear that the Arminian version of Lordship
salvation and insecurity are even worse, and that at least Calvin and
Luther rejected the Catholic and Arminian teaching that you can have
eternal life and be truly saved one day/month/year and be lost again
the next. May God be gracious to all the godly souls who have been
unnecessarily fearful because of that teaching. “Perfect love casts
out fear.”
Len I
do not know of any reputable Wesleyan or Baptist (Free Will, etc.)
that would believe that saved one day and lost the next. NONE! Check
it out: http://evangelicalarminians.org/?s=apostasy
JK Len,
which is why I specifically said "day/month/year". Do
Arminians not believe that you can be saved in 2019 but be "cut
off" in 2020? Or does it take longer than that? The article
doesn't give any time frame required for a cutting off, but according
to what they teach, it has to happen at a point or in a range of
time, for it obviously can't happen apart from time.
Len JK
No, we don't believe that. There is no time. Only Calvinists believe
in exhaustive determinism and all is rendered certain. How can anyone
state a time? You are the first I ever heard this in studying this
topic for over 50 years. Only God knows the future. When someone
crosses that point, only God can judge. Where do you get these ideas?
Please give me a link to the article you get your information on
"...according to what they teach..." I would like to read
it.
JK I
guess I would simply ask you the question: Is it possible to be once
saved and subsequently lost again? If yes, then time is of necessity
at issue. If no, then you admit eternal security, and the final
cutting off of one who once gained eternal life is impossible.
Len I
absolutely do not understand this time factor. Did you dream this up
on your own thinking, my brother? I have never in over 50 years have
heard anything of this nature. I have not read it in theology books,
articles, theologians, pastors, absolutely no one. I also do not
understand your black/white demand of time. Are you thinking of one
moral sin in losing salvation? Most Arminians would reject that. We
believe there is a drifting from the faith which results in final
apostasy. I cannot answer your question without a reference to a
theology book, theology article, theologian, church group, pastor,
teacher anyone who teaches your misunderstanding of Wesleyan
Arminians and Baptist Arminian belief. Please provide someone,
anyone, who teaches what you claim so I can study this. I cannot find
any Wesleyan or Baptist Arminian theologian or article that addresses
that topic. Please provide this, in the mercies of our Lord Jesus.
JK Len,
I’d rather not continue a potentially fruitless discussion. I
believe you and I should be able to discuss such a matter without
asking for a link or citation from others; it would be regrettable if
we couldn’t. When you speak of a drifting from the faith that
results in final apostasy, could I really be faulted for believing
that such drifting involves time? I would challenge you, brother, to
explain how you haven’t just used temporal references to describe
the path to final apostasy and, I assume, perdition.
Len JK
I do believe, J, you know of no one who teaches this. The following
link is what I and most Arminians believe. I have links to what
I believe. Your strawman arguments are fruitless, brother.
What
most of us believe. I’ll let your imagination find a date.
I’m not a very wise person, but pray I honored the Scriptures
and the Lord Jesus.—oOo—
The possibility of falling (being cut off—Romans 11:22). Some do not believe this, so I will not argue you.
The main verses usually cited for the possibility to apostatize. I read and understand the Scriptures in their plain, normal sense in context:
B1 Notice, God is the
one who cuts off. We must not be arrogant. Romans 11:22 CSB
Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward
those who have fallen but God's kindness toward you—if
you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
B2 Hebrews 3:12 CSB
Watch out, brothers and sisters, so that there won't be in any of
you an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
B3 Persecution
sometimes will cause one to apostatize: Luke 8:13 CSB And the seed
on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy.
Having no root, these believe for a while and fall away in a time of
testing.
B4 Turning away from
God’s love and love for God to love something else instead: 2
Timothy 4:10 CSB because Demas has deserted me, since he loved
this present world, and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone
to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
B5 They were partakers
of the Holy Spirit: Hebrews 6:4-6 WEB For concerning those who
were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made
partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is
impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the
Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.
Assurance
B1 Romans 8:16-17 CSB
The Spirit himself testifies together with our spirit that we are
God's children, and if children, also heirs—heirs
of God and coheirs with Christ—if
indeed we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
B2 The verse implies
that we can know: 2 Corinthians 13:5-6 CSB Test yourselves to see
if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Or do you yourselves not
recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless
you fail the test. And I hope you will recognize that we ourselves do
not fail the test.
A video: Matt O’Reilly, “Can Christians Lose Their Salvation (Arminianism vs. Calvinism) | Romans 9-11” (5+1/2 Minute Video) If that link does not work, try this: http://evangelicalarminians.org/matt-oreilly-can-christians-lose-their-salvation-arminianism-vs-calvinism-romans-9-11-51-2-minute-video/
We can safely sleep at night, for it is not us to
keep it, it is God who is faithful. If we continually and
persistently live in unbelief, then God will cut us off.
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